Host Hamid Mir.
Gen Rtd Talat Masood, Tariq Fatmi & Gen.Rtd Hamid Gul
Host Hamid Mir.
Gen Rtd Talat Masood, Tariq Fatmi & Gen.Rtd Hamid Gul
Last edited by Kaleem; 09-17-2008 at 04:07 AM.
Maat ro Zardari abhi jan baqi hai
Tere liye to pura Pakistan baki hai
Bibi qatal hui tere hathon to kiya
Tere liye to Sherry Reahman baqi hai
Quaid e Azam was Quaid-e-Millat
Fatimah Jinnah was Madar-e-Millat
Liaquat Ali Khan was Shaheed-e-Millat
Benazir Bhutto was Dukhtar-e-Millat
Yousuf Raza Gillani is aatay aur biglee ki qillat
Aur Asif Zardari tum ????..............Zillat hi Zillat.
Insh-Allah Pakistan will survive, provided we stop looting our country and build some self esteem. Stop depending too much on US and establish good relations with Russia. Both the army and the politicians, should clean up their acts.
It seems unlikely, but we have out fingers crossed.
I'm sick & tired of this sensationalism of Hamid mir......in recent days he has lost his credibility and is trying very hard to reach Talat saab's stature....
Why does US wants to break our country when we have leaders like Mushy, Zardari who for 1 or 2 billion dollars are ready to sell our country....it is easier to control one person rather than 4 or 5 people.
Hamid Gul has gone senile......he shuld either think before he babbles or shut his idiotic mouth.....OIC ka ijlaas bulaayenge.....Kya karlega OIC.....since 50 years we are taking Kashmir problem to OIC & UN....no result.....Saudis & even Iranians are attempting to give India OIC membership.....
Sorry to say this.....Tariq Fatmi is also becoming repetetive......Russia & France hamara madad karega...LOL....French & Russians are ready to build nuclear reactors for India with full reprocessing option of Uranium....
Wat Hamid Gul was suggesting were the best diplomatic efforts we can make. There is no harm in trying and being optimistic.
To balkanize a country as big as Pakistan is not as easy as it seems that any superpower will wish and it will happen overnight. It requires long term planning and always starts by weakening the federation from within. Later on the final stage of breakup always need a war effort eg. are Bangladesh, Czechoslovakia , Yugoslavia ,etc. Besides Mush and Zardari are a part of US plan since they put all the support behind Mush for 9 years and later brought in Zardari through a deal. However, i personally dont think Zardari will fall for the trap. Even though my heart tells me that we cant trust him however he is a politician and he will never want his rule to be threatened.
An American Viewpoint on:
Futuristic Scenarios in the India-Pakistan Relationship
If US think-tanks had their way, India's most cherished dream, to emerge as a superpower, would be a reality. This is a result of a Study undertaken by a Panel of American Military Strategists* who present three extreme scenarios - of Pakistan being overcome by a US-backed Indian confederation, Sino-Indian hegemony and a win-win China - conjured up by an American study.
The Year 2010 - US Bombs Pakistan
"The United States of America uses its B-2 bombers in the year 2012 to launch conventional air-strikes to destroy Pakistani nuclear facilities in a bid to prevent the nukes from falling into the wrong hands. The extraordinary US action follows an unsuccessful Indian conventional attack on Pakistani nukes, and a Retaliatory Pakistani nuclear strike against Indian border forces. This sparks the disintegration and disappearance of Pakistan, and creation of an expanded Indian Confederation or Superstate."
This is not some Nostradamus indulging in apocalyptic visions. It's just one of the many futuristic scenarios culled out from the "Asia 2025" study - a 147-page Opus - conducted by the US under secretary of defence (policy). Written last year and distributed in limited circles, these documents show that US defence planners are now shifting their focus from Europe to Asia where they would wish to contain the threat of an Islamist Pakistan and an economically-resurgent China. This may in future lead the US to seek closer alliance with India.
2010-12 C.E. Pakistan near collapse; Face-off over Kashmir; Pak uses nukes on India; US takes on Pak Nukes
Rand Corporation's Ashley Tellis, one of the 15 top-guns of American policymaking, who took part in the study, told Outlook: "These are long-range perspective studies. Their chief virtue is that they help policymakers think about alternative futures which would otherwise escape them under day-to-day pressures."
2013-18 C.E. Pakistan accedes to India; India is superstate; India, Iran, U.S. edge China out
This report was a result of a Study held at Naval War College, Newport, Rhode Island, between July 25 and August 4, 1999, the study was meant to explore what Asia might look like and what challenges it might pose to US defence and national security planners till the year 2025. The participants realised that the scenarios were speculative and cautioned that they were not predictive. "Rather they are highly imaginative descriptions of things."
2010-25 C.E. Indonesia fragments US intervenes Sino-India pact US retreats India/China in control
An Asian diplomat in Bangkok added: "The remarkable thing is that India has become such a major factor in US defence policymaking." The nuclear tests by the Vajpayee government coupled with India's emergence as a global IT superpower are bound to lead, sooner or later, to a radical rethink on US defence alliances. What this means is that the US will soon see India as a partner of choice.
2015-25 C.E. China flexes muscles Offers India deal S. Korea, Japan push US out India S. Asia hegemony
The Year 2010 - India Finally Overcomes Pakistan in an Epic Civilizational Struggle against the Islamic Jihad (War to Convert the entire human population to Islam)
The Day India Overcame Pakistan in an Epic Civilizational Struggle lasting One Thousand years
The "New South Asian Order" scenario begins unfolding in the year 2010 with the imminent collapse of Pakistan, where ongoing economic crises, ethnic conflicts and the government's helplessness on the law and order front render it increasingly unstable.
"Sindhis, Baluch and Pathans, who have long resented a Punjabi-dominated Pakistan, rebel. Mohajirs take to the streets. Islamic extremism adds to the instability in two forms - Taliban's destabilisation efforts and the growing power of the " the study says.
In contrast, India successfully combines political decentralisation and economic reforms, generating rapid growth based on steep decline in population growth and a massive influx of foreign direct investment. Simultaneously, China's economic resurgence and belligerence in East Asia brings the US closer to India. As Pakistan slides into anarchy, the US remains focused on North Asia with its forces deployed in Japan and South Korea.
By 2012, the Pakistani state is totally paralysed and loses control to Islamic extremists who infiltrate Kashmir.
"India demands that Pakistan end the Islamic incursions. When Pakistan fails to respond, India moves into Azad Kashmir. Pakistan issues a nuclear ultimatum for Indian withdrawal from Azad Kashmir. The Chinese echo Pakistan's ultimatum and begin mobilising along India's eastern flank between Nepal and Bhutan to sever the Mizoram-Nagaland-Assam-Sikkim outpost of India, and threaten to use 'all available means to stop Indian aggression'. The US urges restraint, and despite other flashpoints, the US sends naval forces to the Bay of Bengal and warns China to stay out," the study speculates.
Fearing that Pakistan would use its nuclear weapons, India launches an unsuccessful conventional strike on the former's nuclear capabilities. Next, Pakistan launches nuclear strikes against Indian forces along their common border, driven by a "use it or lose it" rationale.
The US intelligence shows that Islamists in Pakistan are seizing the remaining Pakistani nuclear weapons. This goads the US to launch "a conventional strike on Pakistan's nuclear sites".
"The extraordinary US action is also motivated by a desire to preempt a full-scale nuclear exchange between Pakistan and India. The US strikes by deploying deep penetration warheads launched from B-2 bombers to destroy Pakistan's remaining nuclear forces. Faced with the reality of US-Indian cooperation, China backs off on the northeastern front," it adds.
"Total anarchy prevails in Pakistan. The Indian army moves in to restore order. As the country disintegrates, Pakistan's regions accede incrementally to India. The Sindhi, Baluch, and North West Frontier Province parliaments vote to join an Indian-led confederation. An Indian Confederation emerges. Isolated Punjab is compelled to join the confederation and merges with its Indian counterpart to form a greater Punjab province within the confederation," the scenario goes.
"India's central government grants extensive internal autonomy to the Erstwhile Pakistani Provinces which are now confederal units within India in exchange for control over their defence and foreign policies.
Economically vibrant, the confederation is recognized as the regional hegemon and an economic magnet for trade and energy flows. The disappearance of Pakistan and the emergence of the Indian Confederation have a cascading effect across Central Asia. Afghanistan, is dismembered by its neighbouring states - Iran, Tajikistan, and Uzbekistan - who move in to annex the territory controlled by their own ethnic groups."
The study says that Pakistan disappears by 2020, and the Indian Confederation emerges as a regional superstate.
With Central Asia stabilising, energy pipelines from Central Asia, via Iran, to the energy hungry subcontinent are constructed. The East-West orientation of energy and commerce in Central Asia gives way to a new North-South orientation. Iran becomes the main transit country and Karachi the main port, to the East Asian markets.
It sees India becoming a "regional hegemon", and US planners are now urging the US defence department to anticipate a heightened Indian economic and strategic role in the region, raising the question: What does all this mean for the US presence in Diego Garcia and the potential for military cooperation with India?
In the end, the US discovers unexpected partners in India and post-Islamic Iran
In the end, the US discovers unexpected partners in India and post-Islamic Iran. Both countries (India and Post-Islamic Iran) take on enhanced roles to protect sea-lanes for oil deliveries, reducing US responsibilities in the Indian Ocean and the Gulf. According to the study, China could respond to India's emergence not by challenging it head on, but by increasing its activities in the Russian Far East and Indochina. It may, thus, challenge US interests in East Asia. It could, for instance, strengthen its position in Indochina and the Bay of Bengal, making Southeast Asia the future arena of conflict and competition.
And, if India does become a future US ally, what kind of development, regional and global, would be needed to cement these ties further? Tellis has a pithy list: "Collapsing Pakistan, aggressive China, threats to Middle East oil, deeper Indian-US economic and military engagement, high Indian growth rates, Indian willingness to participate in combined peace operations with the US."
Anti-Islamic Sino-Indian Entente
A second scenario is the creation of a "New Sino-Indian Condominium." In the lead-up to this development, the US tries but fails to reach a strategic arrangement with India till 2010. India resents US inattention, which feeds the Indian national psychology of wanting to be seen as a great power.
"In a blatant act of self-assertion, India conducts a new round of nuclear tests in 2008, precluding any possibility of moving forward in a strategic relationship with the US. Growing anti-hegemonic sentiments stimulate India to accelerate its military buildup, shifting attention increasingly towards naval power," the study says.
As the US initiative towards India founders and eventually collapses after India's nuclear tests, and as Indonesia's fragility becomes more threatening, India and China initiate strategic discussions on regional cooperation to secure sea-lanes, control regional unrest, and common concerns.... The anti-hegemonic undertones of their discussion gradually surface as an explicit shared objective in displacing the US from the regions they seek to dominate.
Just how deep is US mistrust of China in matters relating to defence? Tellis says the mistrust is growing. And, how does this sit with US economic interests in China? He responds: "Conflict not yet reconciled, and will not be for a long time to come since China does not yet pose significant direct threat to the US or US interests." In 2014, Indonesia fragments, leading to a slaughter of wealthy Chinese, as separatist rebels seize Indonesian gas and oil production. "Everybody except China and India want the US to act" to restore order, the study says.
In 2016, during the run-up to a US presidential election, a small band of Islamic militants, intent on hurting the US, fires a series of powerful missiles at a US destroyer and frigate passing through the narrow Lombok Straits near Indonesia.
More than 200 US sailors and marines are killed. All presidential candidates pledge to bring American troops home and the US announces immediate cessation of operations and orders US ships to pull back.
In 2017, Chinese and Indian leaders intensify their discussion of ways to eject US presence from the South China Sea, where China wants to establish hegemony, and from the Indian Ocean, where India wishes to establish its supremacy. They tacitly agree to cooperate and decide on joint action.
India moves rapidly into the Straits of Malacca, and China takes control of the Lombok and Sunda Straits and reopens them to international traffic. China also occupies the disputed Spratly Islands and Natuna gasfields. India's navy takes command of the Malacca Straits by cracking down on the pirates.
Most countries, including Japan, praise China and India for their joint action. Between 2017 and 2025, the US presence in the Pacific and Indian Oceans rolls back, and America's allies reach a new accommodation with China and India.
"The tensions between China and India are not eliminated by their dividing much of Asia into hegemonic spheres. But for the time being, cooperation suits both perfectly..... The New Sino-Indian Order begins."
The study suggests that Sino-Indian cooperation might be impeded if the US establishes a working strategic dialogue and common geopolitical objectives with one partner. "India appears to be the more logical choice of the two," the study says.
US may need to rethink its strict non-proliferation policy, the study says, because some states like India which acquire nuclear weapons may actually contribute to the US national security goals. "The US may be faced with a trade-off between selective proliferation and regional presence," the study says.
India and China re-discover their Two Thousand Year Old Relationship
THIS scenario is hinged on the fact that China's long-term goal is to dominate Asia and this doesn't change whether China is strong or becomes relatively weak due to domestic economic and political troubles. Beijing is now determined to control Taiwan, the South China Sea, and the Senkaku islands (also claimed by Japan).
Well before 2025, China will have established effective control of Continental East Asia and peninsular Southeast Asia will fall under its thrall. From 2000-2015, China increases its military presence in the South China Sea, establishing several naval bases there. asean (Association of South East Asian Nations) fails to act collectively against Chinese expansionism.
The study, very clearly says, "Next, China temporarily and adroitly neutralises India by recognising Indian hegemony in South Asia and the Indian Ocean.
China withdraws from its de facto bases on Burma's Indian Ocean coast. In return, India tacitly recognises China's hegemony over the South China Sea, further undermining Southeast Asia's will to resist aggressive Chinese encroachment."
Another scenario, entitled "China Acts" sees a full-blown naval battle between China and the US, with the latter losing lives and aircraft. This happens after the US withdraws from Japan and South Korea by 2015 following ultra-nationalist protests in those countries against US presence, ending in a series of terrorist attacks against US forces. The damage is done and the American people support a pull out of their forces from East Asia. China takes a series of steps to cash in on the fact that the US has effectively no forward presence in Asia.
India sees the US Alliance as an opportunity
"India sees the US Alliance as an opportunity to elevate its position in the Asian prestige hierarchy. India, which has been developing a blue water navy, accelerates its programme and is capable of out-of-area deployments. Like the Japanese, it also remains open to new defence relationships and an enhanced diplomatic role in regional security issues, particularly in the Persian Gulf," the study says. Here, India's role is enhanced but it remains subordinate to China's strategic interests.
What also emerges from these scenarios is the fact that India becomes crucial to the United States strategic thinking, and could emerge as a major regional power with whom the US would work together towards having military tie-ups to fight the dangers of theology-inspired terrorism to global peace.
Read other pages bringing you an Analysis of the Latest Global News at hindutva.com
Chairman: S. Enders Wimbush, Hicks & Associates
Lt. Col (USMC) Michael Brooker, HQMC PP&O
Nicholas Eberstadt, American Enterprise Institute
Aaron Friedberg, Princeton University
Graham Fuller, RAND Corporation
Stuart Gold, Science Applications International Corporation
Capt (USN) Karl Hasslinger, OSD/Net Assessment
Juli A. MacDonald, Hicks & Associates
Rajan Menon, Lehigh University
Maj (USA) Thomas J. Moffat, National Ground Intelligence Center
Ross H. Munro, Center for Security Studies
Abraham Shulsky, Consultant
Victor Cha, Georgetown University
George K. Tanham, RAND Corporation Ashley Tellis, RAND Corporation
Hindutva Series - Futuritic Scenarios in the India-Pakistan Relationship
Why should a third country balkanise us....we are well on the way....when leaders of our country have scant respect for people of Balochistan, FATA, Waziristan who are virtually out of mainstream, why should a third country bother to destabilize us......Even the centerpiece of our foreign policy Kashmir is not getting attention by these so-called leaders..... Kashmiris are so close to freedom and we are busy fighting each other.
Zardari will not fall into that trap???? you must be kidding......He is already neck deep in this trap.....US & Europe have put us in such a strangle hold both militarily & economically.....without immideiate aid from US & world bank we are going to default..our foreign exchange resrves are at all time low..and will ast only 45-60 days..after that we don't even have $$$ to pay for oil....and our Saudi brothers are businessmen first and Muslims later....Our military hardware is US based....idiots should recall military embargo by Europe & USA during 1971 war....
This monster was living amongst us with its dangerous ideology and popular support for 25 years. Why didnt it cause us any problems before 2004?
If we dont come out of the foolishness that we call collateral damage (which in reality are innocent people) we are going to dig deeper and deeper into our own graves.
Yes I say world has changed alot in twenty years but more so in last 8 years and geo-political situation is changing rapidly everyday. Russia is threatening Poland with nuclear attack and Nato with war. It has already offered Pakistan engines for JF 17 thunder and trade/investment deals.
We dont need to have OIC on our side but even if they stay neutral due to our diplomacy i think it will be an achievement...remember we are politically isolated right now.Even China is getting wary of us unless we do something drastic to mend ties.
Leaders that have done damage to our country to an extent that its balkanizing (Mush) were installed and fully supported by external powers...they had their agenda and our dictators had theirs..remember Saddam Hussein was the blue-eyed boy of USA..His army didnt fire a single shot to defend baghdad...wat did they do to him..they killed his sons infront of him...sadly our dictators never learn from history becoz they have so much too hide in their dark closets....plus the mazaa of power no matter how temporary it might be.
As far as Kashmir is concerned...hum apnay jogaay nahin hain tou kashmir ko kia azaad karain gay...we are attacked by drones and foreign troops and our defence minister says we are helpless. #@# IDIOTs then they should get off the pod and let someone who can defend us lead the country. Ppl like Nusrat Javed in Bolta Pakistan shamelessly support the cowardice of our leaders (jiyala democracy) ..it would be interesting to ask him wat he thinks if a predator drone destroys his house and kills his family.
Having said that ...i would give Zardari more time to make an effort to get us out of this mess. If he succeeds hurrah for jiyalas .. they will make him a god but if he doesnt... staying in govt would be the last thing PPP would be worrying about.
bezerk05 added 5 Minutes and 4 Seconds later...
Give me one example of suicide bombing before 2004!!
Sectarian killing is something different...that should be attributed to Zia who created Sipah Sahaba to kill shia fanatics inorder to prevent iranian revolution from spilling over in to Pakistan.
Bomb blasts in 1990s were always attributed to India. Before 2002 they were still attributed to India and on one instance claimed by BLA (lahore blast). Only attacks on high profile military officers were attributed to extremist elements within armed forces.
Last edited by bezerk05; 09-17-2008 at 09:41 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
very low quality discussion....blah blah blah by the guests.
shasnahn added 1 Minutes and 48 Seconds later...
Last edited by shasnahn; 09-17-2008 at 09:44 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
[quote=bezerk05;776097]"Incompetent and idiotic" were the words far away from our thoughts when the entire country was praising our army for their achievements in 1990s.
plzz don't mingle our army with this senile Hamid Gul!!! Hamid Gul's biggest contribution is creation of this Franskenstein monster called Taliban which are now out of control & bombing our own citizens.....His other spectacular failures are Khalistanis...and they were mercilessly crushed by India.....and the short lived Islami Jamhoori Ittehad, IJI which evoparated into thin air.
AFAIK, JF-17 is a JV between us & China.....though JF-17 engines are based on MIG-21 but alas it's Chinese and reliability of chinese goods are well known.
Due to wrong decisions of our leaders, Pakistan as a nation is facing a serious credibility crunch..you said it right...even Chinese are wary of us. But China we can always trust.....
Saddam was a blue-eyed boy of USA until he threatened the Saudis & Israel....after that his downfall was spectacular & swift.
Nusrat Javed & Mushtaq Minhas are two sides of same coin...both are working for their respective masters....
We are also ready to give Zaradari more time...but atleast show some gesture of defiance to US.....